Wheelgun Question

topic posted Sat, September 8, 2007 - 9:57 PM by  Unsubscribed
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Just a quick question for any wheelgun owners:

Can I load my ruger GP 100 with a full moon clip? can I do it in the usual 38 special/357 mags or would I need to do a rimless case like a .380 or a super?

Does anybody know, by a snowball's chance in hell?
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    Re: Wheelgun Question

    Sat, September 8, 2007 - 11:36 PM
    Oh ya...and what's the best speed loader system... push-release, twist-release, the solid rubber slide-out sideways ones, or something else I don't know about?
    • Jim
      Jim
      offline 0

      Re: Wheelgun Question

      Tue, October 2, 2007 - 12:56 PM
      I have used all of the speed loaders. I teach NRA classes and demonstrate them to my revolver students. Personally, I prefer the Safariland Comp II which are the push release type of speed loader. In my experience they are the quickest way to reload a revolver. The HKS speedloaders are twist and release. They work fine but are just a shade slower to use than the Safariland. The speed strips are handy for carrying backup rounds and are a necessity for performing tactical reloads to keep your revolver topped off. They load two rounds at a time.

      To do tactical reloads the following works for most revolvers. To do a tactical reload grasp the revolver with the left hand with the two middle fingers on the cylinder and the index finger and little finger are on the side of the revolver. This should provide a firm hold on the revolver. Use the right hand to push the cylinder latch. Using the two middle fingers of the left hand swing the cylinder out while maintaining a firm grip on the revolver with the left hand keeping the revolver pointed toward the ground. Several tests may be necessary to determine the angle that works best for a tactical reload. Placing the right hand on the ejector rod push it enough to partially move the rounds out of the chamber. Let the ejector rod back down slowly. How slowly will be determined by your revolver. Most of the time the fired rounds will remain out of the cylinder at bit. This happens because a fired round expands some while the unfired ones do not. The unfired rounds will fall back into the cylinder. If the fired rounds stick out, you can then use your right hand to pick out the fired cases by hand and reload with your right hand using a speed strip. With a little practice this can be done quickly. Practice doing it without looking so you can done this in the dark if need be. If this does not work then dump all of the rounds and fill up with a speedloader. A full gun always works best in a gunfight so learning to do tactical reloads is a necessity.

      I do not care much for the rubber twist speedloaders. It is often hard to get the rounds lined up so loading in the dark is harder than with the other types of loaders. . The other types will work in complete darkness with practice.
  • Re: Wheelgun Question

    Sun, September 9, 2007 - 11:04 AM
    There probably isnt enough clearance for a moon clip and you need a rimmed cartridge use the moon clips. Use the Bianchi speed strips, they are quicker and easier to carry IMO
    • Re: Wheelgun Question

      Sun, September 9, 2007 - 1:42 PM
      I don't think the cylinder will spin properly with half moon clips. If they were able to be used then you'd see a recessed area (roughly the size and shape of the clips) on the back of the cylinder.
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        Re: Wheelgun Question

        Sun, September 9, 2007 - 3:27 PM
        speed strips are quicker than speed loaders? interesting. that would mean speed loaders can get hassle-ish, more than I thought.... or at least a far cry from my impression that you just push a button or something like that and all your bullets are instantly dropped in the cylinder. More opinions please? I'm learning here.

        here's a scenario to work with. I don't like to keep my gun loaded for HD... I'd rather have the bullets very quick on hand, right next to the gun, much like an autoloader with the mag next to it, ready to load. what's the best for this?
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          Re: Wheelgun Question

          Sun, September 9, 2007 - 6:39 PM
          You can futz around with speed loaders and speed strips if you want, but why not just use a semi-automatic pistol instead? I mean, there are a lot of great qualities about wheel guns, and they're very stylish to boot, but if you're going to keep a carry piece unloaded, why not use something that loads magazines? And while we're on that train of thought, why not just keep the gun loaded and have it securely fastened in half-cocked position? De-cockers rule.
          • Re: Wheelgun Question

            Mon, September 10, 2007 - 6:35 PM
            Speed strips are more of a convenience thing. They allow you to carry 6 more rounds in a convenient flat strip. Speed loaders are faster (check out some footage on Gary Miculek and his world's record reloads.)

            If you have a good revolver loaded with reliable ammo (ie: S&W 357 magnum/w 124gr hollowpoints or Magsafe defenders,) then you should be good to go. Most civilain gunfights are short. As a matter of fact, Sanow & Marshall cover this topic in their first book. Gunfights involving 45acp & 357 magnum statistically expend fewer rounds than smaller calibers.

            If you can't stop it with 6 rounds of 357 then you probably need a couple of priests and a gallon of holy water.
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              Re: Wheelgun Question

              Thu, September 20, 2007 - 7:38 PM
              that's been my thing, I'm not much for hi-capacity guns. I figure, if five or six shots aren't enough, you iether suck at shooting or you picked the wrong fight. I don't fancy myself Rambo and I can't really imagine a use for 17 bullets as a civilian defending myself and my wife. We're not wanted by any druglords and we're not Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Wheelguns are fine, and .357's are fine firepower indeed.
              • Re: Wheelgun Question

                Fri, September 21, 2007 - 6:38 AM
                I agree,a revolver is fine for defense,and .357Mag is one of the best calibers out there.Also,the greatest advantange to 6 shooter,is they don't jam,I have ,to date,never had a revolver fail to fire.
                I use my .357 for target shooting,out to ranges of 100 meters,I use it for hunting,and have taken boar,bear and deer with it.

                The other revolvers I have and use are .44Mag, .45 long colt, and my latest .480 Ruger. Everyone having more fire power in 6 rounds than a 9mm has in 15.

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                  Re: Wheelgun Question

                  Fri, September 21, 2007 - 10:13 AM
                  I don't disagree at all... I love revolvers. But the topic at hand was about keeping a gun unloaded for carry and then loading it quickly when needed. I just don't think a revolver fits the bill for that scenario.

                  If one type of gun could fulfill every kind of need, there'd only be one type of gun.
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                    Unsu...
                     

                    Re: Wheelgun Question

                    Fri, September 21, 2007 - 10:31 AM
                    I envision a swiss army gun.... a very very wide stock, with several fold-out actions with barrels. A shottie, a 30 caliber bolt, a .22 semiauto, and a spork!
  • Re: Wheelgun Question

    Sun, September 23, 2007 - 1:54 PM
    First post… so that is why the strange, new face here.

    You can get the GP100 machined to accept moon clips. The first site is the company that will do the conversion and the second site is the source for the clips.

    www.clarkcustomguns.com/moonclip.htm

    www.moonclips.com/new.htm

    You might as well go for the S&W Model 327 M&P. You get 8 shots, designed for full moon clips and a few other benefits like a couple of rails besides. Of course, there is the downside of a bigger gun and that retarded internal lock as well.

    Mark
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      Re: Wheelgun Question

      Sun, September 23, 2007 - 2:51 PM
      I like the model 327, it's a good design for it's intended purpose as a shield entry gun. For HD I suppose it's also very well suited, having the light rail and the extra 2 shots, the cumbersome size isn't that important on a gun that stays at home.

      Can a moon clip cylinder still accomodate being loaded sans-clips? does it mess up the system at all?
      • Re: Wheelgun Question

        Mon, September 24, 2007 - 5:07 PM
        I have used a .45 ACP revolver before without the clips and had no issues EXCEPT the extractor won't work properly without the clips. The rim does not protrude far enough to grab it properly. I have no idea how it would impact a .357 magnum. It would probably depend on the revolver itself.
        • Jeb
          Jeb
          offline 2

          Re: Wheelgun Question

          Mon, September 24, 2007 - 6:06 PM
          Shouldn't really impact things. It'd be rather like shooting .45 Auto Rim in a revolver made for .45 ACP with moon clips. Which you might want to pick up a few rounds of yourself, sure does make a range trip a lot easier if you have 50-100 rounds of Auto Rim to shoot out of a .45 ACP revolver.

          • Re: Wheelgun Question

            Tue, September 25, 2007 - 12:11 PM
            The .45 revolver tends to be my "wilderness" backup for my 1911, so I prefer to keep the same brass in both.

            If things get too bad on the gun control front (limited to bolt & level action as well as revolvers), I would probably get a ton of .45 AR. But for now, I want the brass the same.
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              Re: Wheelgun Question

              Tue, September 25, 2007 - 8:05 PM
              you'd trust .45 acp as a wilderness gun? must not be any big critters in your neck of the woods. I wouldn't want anything with less penetration or terminal energy than a .357 as a bare minimum if I'm to refer to it as 'wilderness gun'. But we have the occasional 'bigger critter' in the woods where I do my 'wilderness-ing'
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                Re: Wheelgun Question

                Tue, September 25, 2007 - 8:09 PM
                notice I said *bare minimum*.... I'm saying this now to stem any remarks about being better equipped with 44 mags or cassuls or rocket propelled grenades.
              • Re: Wheelgun Question

                Tue, September 25, 2007 - 9:27 PM
                Wilderness *PEOPLE* gun. I deal with four-legged critters differently. I don't behave like prey, I don't mess with their kids and I warn them they will have issues with me. I have only had to take a shot at an animal once in self-defense and that was during a forest fire.

                It is generally the two legged critters that don't act rationally that you have to defend yourself from. And a decent .45 ACP load is plenty for that.
                • Re: Wheelgun Question

                  Thu, September 27, 2007 - 10:44 AM
                  There was an article in one of the major gun mags a few years back where they hunted Arizona black bear with 1911s. Both writers got their bears with a minimum of shots (2 each I think) Properly loaded the 1911 will do a lot, just find yourself one that rattles when you shoot it. Tight tolerance autos need constant cleaning to work reliably in the wilderness. A sloppy old surplus 1911 would do well in the dirt.\

                  Back to your idea of using rounds without the moon clip. You can use the 45 acp without the moon clips because 45acp headspaces on the neck of the cartridge, but the 357 & 38 headspace on the rim at the bottom. Without the moon clip they could slip too far into the cylinder and do any number of things like excessive pressure on the crimp, or keeping the cylinder from rotating freely, or being too far forward for reliable primer ignition.

                  If you want to carry a gun, you might as well load it. The concealed weapons charge is the same either way. Like I said, speed strips are more convenient for their flatness, speedloaders are better for their speed.
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                    Re: Wheelgun Question

                    Thu, September 27, 2007 - 2:21 PM
                    No offense, but have you shot a bear yourself? I was working one summer in Alaska at a cannery. One of the garbage bear cubs came into camp and got stuck under one of the trailers, so mama followed. The company policy was that any bear that entered the camp needed to be shot to be sure it wouldn't happen again.

                    Four of us shot the bear in excess of 30 times (meaning, that is how many rounds were recovered from the body). I was using a .44 magnum. I would have given my entire summer paycheck for an RPG and considered it a good deal.

                    I have read reports of people succesfully using a 9mm to defend themselves from a bear. One report showed that the person broke the bears shoulder.

                    Bears carry around a great deal of fat and fur. The key is penetration and most of the rounds we deal with for social situations won't penetrate far enough. And that is on purpose. We don't want to shoot through someone and endanger another person. We want the round's energy expended only in the intended target. Most of these rounds will only be good at making a bear mad unless you are an exceptional shot or very, very lucky.

                    I don't buy into the loose 1911 myth. If it is fitted properly and not slapped together from random parts, it will do just fine, even when mucked up. Les Baer, Springfield Armory, Wilson Combat, Rock River Arms, and a few others will build a 1911 that will survive dust and mud just fine.

                    I still prefer a revolver for the wilderness. Really cold weather will affect it less, lubrication is not as critical (and if you have had lube freeze on you, you know what I mean), water can't be trapped in the barrel, there is enough space to use a thick glove, and if you have to loan it to someone, the manual of arms is easier to handle. I view my revolvers as the backup to my long guns. I don't need to carry concealed in the wild, I can carry my rifle openly. I don't have that option in the city, so I carry according to my needs there.

                    Then again, this is all my opinion and experience. Your mileage, needs and experiences may have led you to different conclusions than mine have. :)
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                      Re: Wheelgun Question

                      Thu, September 27, 2007 - 7:39 PM
                      to Adam: as far as CCW goes, I would never carry if not loaded and ready to go, and as a rule I only live in and move around 'shall issue' states. I moved to Bay Area once, and one trip to the gun range and meeting some owners, and realizing the true scope of the bay-area anti-gun sentiment surrounding and threatening all 2nd ammenders, I moved out of there within three weeks of moving in! There was a bit more to it than that, but the gun prohibition down there was a big weighty decision factor!

                      To Mark: I wouldn't even take aim at a bear with a handgun unless my life was directly threatened by not doing so. I'm no animal rights activist, I just don't want to piss a bear off! I've read too many accounts of bears not dying when they're supposed to, even with well placed shots and supposedly 'more than adequate' firepower. A deep penetrator to the brain is the only thing I would trust. Having said that, I feel just as safe with a .357 in bear country as with a .44 or a cassul, all three being 'marginal and unsafe' in my book. All three have enough to stop the threat with a brain shot, and that's the best you can hope for.

                      And I wouldn't count on being able to make that brain shot in a squeeze unless I could consistently punch clay pidgeons at 30 yards with said handgun and said load.

                      A wise man once said:
                      ''Smokey the Bear is not a mascott to be trusted.
                      Kids, if you ever see a bear wearing a ranger hat, it is because the bear at the ranger and took his hat. Stay away from bears.''
                      • Re: Wheelgun Question

                        Thu, September 27, 2007 - 9:00 PM
                        Quick response. I would not try a .357 on the skull of a bear. IMNSHO, it just is not enough power. My prefered round for .44 magnum is a Garrett Hammerhead. I will include the link below. Note that the round requires a heavy duty .44 magnum. That means S&W need not apply to the party. Ruger, Dan Wesson revolvers and Freedom Arms single actions are needed to handle the pressures on this cartridge.


                        www.garrettcartridges.com/44mag.asp
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                          Re: Wheelgun Question

                          Thu, September 27, 2007 - 9:13 PM
                          You don't think a .357 can punch a bear's brain cover? A close friend of mine had an accidental discharge on his .357 a while back. He had a solid wood front door, with steel on both sides. The flying bullet was a humble 158 grain LRN cowboy plinking load. nowhere near full-house or what you'd consider a 'penetrator' bullet. And let me tell ya, that little lead chunk cleared that front door on both sides like it was made of paper...fragmented on the other side into two pieces, one about 75% and the other 25% of original mass. The 75% chunk crossed the hall, through the siding of the apartment-neighbor's house side... into and through the wafer-board wood walling, through the insulation and as luck would have it, through an electrical wire which was sheathed in PVC conduit, through the sheetrock and into the apartment, bringing chunks of PVC and drywall with it.... up into the ceiling and through into the attic, cutting through the sheetrock at a nearly glancing angle, so it must have drilled a good 4 inches of drywall line-of-travel before entering the attic....where the police who came out to fill the report 'assumed' it had stopped in the attic. I got to see the aftermath and all I could say was...holy damn.

                          That's considered a 'mild' loading for a .357 magnum, out of a 4 inch barrel. And you think a 180-grain penetrator hunting round won't clear 3/8 of an inch of bone in a bear's head?
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                            Re: Wheelgun Question

                            Thu, September 27, 2007 - 9:24 PM
                            sidenote... Until I saw the evidence, I would not have believed the 'little guy' among the magnum cartridges was much to be reckoned with... but you gotta remember, when that cartridge came out, it was thought of as a ridiculous ammount of power, many saw it as too much power. Just because we have bigger players in the field today, doesn't mean the .357 is any less powerful than it is. Like all cartridges, it's been refined and increased in capability from the old days, and even back then it was considered practically unstoppable. .44 mag is of course, MORE unstoppable... but don't make the mistake of relegating the .357 as 'weak'. For the weight and easy-accurate shot placement, I feel safer with a .357 because let's face it.... who the hell can shoot accurately one-handed quickdraw with a .44 mag or .454 casull? those are hunting cartridges... designed and practiced for use with support, aim time, grip adjustment, and preparation. When's the last time you ever saw a guy quick-draw a .44 mag and empty the gun one handed at the range? OF COURSE nobody in their right mind would punish their hand in such a way. But without that kind of practice, the reflexes won't be there when you meet your bear unexpectedly. For the quick-reaction shooting sometimes mandated in self-defense situations, I want the smallest, easiest-to-manage cartridge that will still get the job done.
                          • Re: Wheelgun Question

                            Thu, September 27, 2007 - 9:30 PM
                            In a word, no. Talk to someone who hunts or guides bear hunters. Bullets will quite literally bounce off a bear's skull. It is very dense. And that is with loads specifically focused on bear hunting. So if someone is worried about a deflected shot with a .338 mag (for example), do you really think a .357 mag of any stripe has more or less of a chance of making it through?
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                              Re: Wheelgun Question

                              Thu, September 27, 2007 - 9:42 PM
                              I guess I'll have to write MythBusters about this one.... I just don't see how a bear's skull can be more dense and have more tensile strength than the same thickness in steel, but then I must concede I've never knocked on a bear's head with a tuning fork before.
                              • Re: Wheelgun Question

                                Thu, September 27, 2007 - 9:44 PM
                                Well, I only have the one experience and I can admit I was not at my calmest or analytical state there.

                                I did do a quick google and got state sites from Maryland and Alaska, both stating that taking head shots was not recommended.
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                                  Re: Wheelgun Question

                                  Thu, September 27, 2007 - 10:05 PM
                                  Lol... I think eventually we have to accept that if a Grizzly wants to eat you, and he's within 30 yards, he is going to eat you. Even if you shoot him through the heart four times, he is going to eat you, and then die with a full stomach. I've heard too many accounts of the Grizzly putting up a deadly defiant fight, even after being many times mortally wounded. He doesn't realize he's dead until the adrenaline is gone. As long as he's pissed off, or scared, or hungry, he's not going down. It's a hard thing to accept, he being just another animal and all that...but if encountered in a surprise defensive situation, you have to put him, and the African Bull elephant, and the 100 foot tidal wave all in the same category. If any of those listed items catches you off guard, your chances of survival can only be described in four-letter words.

                                  That being said, I guess I can still stand by my previous statement that i feel just as safe with a .357 against a bear than a .454 Cassul.
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                                    Re: Wheelgun Question

                                    Fri, September 28, 2007 - 7:36 AM
                                    Bears in general are pretty tough, but grizzlies, kodiaks, and polar bears especially.

                                    While my dad was an archaeologist working in Alaska, he had his pickup truck literally torn apart by a berserking polar bear while he was still inside. By his account, it took 7 people with rifles firing round after round to bring it down.
                                • Re: Wheelgun Question

                                  Sat, September 29, 2007 - 2:33 PM
                                  I would recommend against shooting bears in the head. If you ever get a chance to see an actual bear skull you'll see how armor plated the thing is. They are truly hard headed.

                                  The article I mentioned about hunting bear with 45acps was about hunting Arizona Black bear. Our bear only get to be about 300 lbs or so, and don;t put on a lot of winter fat (since we don;t have much of a winter.) In AZ you could get away with a 357 or 45, but I'd think twice about such small calibers in other states. In Alaska, I wouldn;t camp without a rifle, probably a good 45-70.
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                                    Re: Wheelgun Question

                                    Sat, September 29, 2007 - 7:01 PM
                                    I hear a lot of guys in big bear country like to keep a 12 gauge stagecoach with magnum big slugs, the idea being that if you give him both barrels at once, he might feel your influence enough. But honestly, from all the different accounts I've read with all different ideas of weaponry and tactics, and their widely varying outcomes, the only sure bet against a big bear is a RPG or that nice little fifty cal off the bottom of an Apache helicopter.

                                    Tidal waves, Bull elephants, Tornadoes, Grizzlies. It's all the same threat category.
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                              Re: Wheelgun Question

                              Mon, October 15, 2007 - 7:27 AM
                              A park ranger told me when he's out doing his squirrel count's, or whatever they do out there, he carried a 12 gauge pump for bear defense. He said he loaded number 8 bird shot first to take out the bear's eye's and backed that up with slug's.
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                                Re: Wheelgun Question

                                Mon, October 15, 2007 - 8:52 AM
                                Oh, so then the bear is blind AND pissed off. Great strategy.
                                • Re: Wheelgun Question

                                  Mon, November 5, 2007 - 6:15 PM
                                  I grew up in alaska, spent most summers outdoors for days and weeks at a time. We normally carried a .357 knowing full well from firsthand accounts it would piss a bear off if you shot it in the head. Your best bet from those that have shot at and survived bear charges, that shooting to disarticulate the limb so it cannot chase your is your best chance. IE: shoulder/ hip shots.

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