Advertisement
Another thread was wandering in this direction and I figured the subject deserved it's own short discussion.
What is your take on 'Scout Rifles'?
Are they the super-versatile weapon that can be adequately called into any type of employment or service? Or are they the weapon that's not quite good enough for any particular application, sorta sucks at them all, equally? Best of all worlds or a useless combination of compromises?
Who has experience with scout configured rifles? what's your take on em?
What is your take on 'Scout Rifles'?
Are they the super-versatile weapon that can be adequately called into any type of employment or service? Or are they the weapon that's not quite good enough for any particular application, sorta sucks at them all, equally? Best of all worlds or a useless combination of compromises?
Who has experience with scout configured rifles? what's your take on em?
posted by:
|
Unsubscribed |
Advertisement
Advertisement
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sat, June 21, 2008 - 5:28 PMI just remembered somthing, so I looked it up, The top sniper in ww2 was a norwegian kid with over 400 kills in 4 mos, he prefered a mauser with iron sights, a scope took him too long to aquire a target and most of his shots were under 450 yrds, I think I will use my mosin carbine as a "scout" rifle, and im not puttin a scope onnit
This Finnish soldier was nicknamed "Belaya Smert" (Russian Белая Смерть; in English, "White D eath") by the Soviet army. Why?
"He worked in temperatures between -20° to -40° Celsius, and dressed completely in a white camouflage suit. Häyhä was credited with confirmed 505 kills against Soviet soldiers" -- the unofficial count is almost 600 (includes d eaths not officially confirmed by a "third party" -- a tragicomic expression).
His weapon?
"Häyhä used a Finnish variant, M28, of the Soviet Mosin-Nagant rifle (known as "Pystykorva" rifle), because it suited his small frame (5 ft / 1.52 m!). He preferred to use iron sights rather than telescopic sights to present a smaller target (the sniper must raise their head higher when using telescopic sights) and aid concealment (sun reflecting off telescopic sight lenses can reveal a sniper's position)."
Simo Häyhä was also credited with two hundred kills with a submachine gun, "thus bringing his credited kills to at least 705". All of which were conducted "within three months prior to injuries caused by an enemy bullet... Before his injury, the Russians tried several plans to get rid of him, including counter snipers and artillery strikes."
Source:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo...A4yh%C3%A4 -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sat, June 21, 2008 - 5:36 PMthe M28 is just about the same as my soviet m38, hmm cool and I thought he used a mauser, yep i found my scout rifle, I really like this gun, It only cost me 100 bucks, but its one of my favorites, It shoots great, and is very comfortable to carry and use. everyone should have one of these -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 11:30 AMGlad to see some research, greg! My pet peeve is people who pass on hearsay without looking into it, woulda said 'he used a mauser' and left it at that hehe. Simo is a truly awesome badass.
Did you know he did get countersniped? It ended his war career, he was shot in the head, made a big mess out of his face... but that hard little badass Simo was still able to return fire with half his cheek missing, and kill the countersniper, and survived the war. -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 3:07 PMya he lost his cheek and half his jaw, after the war he raised dogs. the thing that impresses me most was that he wasnt a Rambo, self styled or otherwise, just a average man protecting his home, mitch oughta go visit his house lol -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 5:42 PMThe modern definition of a scout rifle, as defined by Col Cooper, is a short, handy rifle in a capable caliber (308) with a scope mounted forward of the chamber. The idea of the forward mounted scope was to keep it low and close to the bore axis, so it would sight like iron sights.
When Steyr created their Scout rifle, built to Cooper's specs, it was a really great rifle. A bit expensive ($1200+) but for a really well made weapon with an integral bipod, room for spare magazines, scout mounted scope, and an adjustable stock, I guess it's worth it.
I built a sort of scout rifle a while back, posted the pics here on tribe. Mine is definately not short and handy though (29" barrel!) The concept is valid and proven by the gunner's guru. My only question about scout style rifles is how does the forward mounted scope effect parralax? I am investigating the issue with my AK that uses a forward mounted red-dot scope. -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 5:51 PMA short handy rifle huh? Id think that covered leverguns as well my marlin 1895 in 3030 is a handy little gun, ( a word of advice, i bought / installed the "rifleman" lever , waste of time and ammo, I aint Lucas Mcain) but I gotta say , I like my mosin better, i knowits a cheap gun, but I sure like it a lot -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 6:38 PMHey Greg, do you know if they make 7.62x54R commercially? Can you get it in hunting rounds? reloadable brass? or are they pretty much just milsurp feeders? They're so cheap, if I hear much more praise about them I just might go out and get a couple, even if they're ugly as sin. -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, June 22, 2008 - 7:44 PMyes they do, i know for a fact winchester makes them , marketed under "metric calibers" about 20 buks a box, but you can reload them so i have some, but if you dont mind buyin in bulk you can get good deals on mil surp ammo, last year i got 10,000 rounds for 1000 dollars. you just gotta shop around.go to gun shows and shoots and stuff.but i have bought some of the winchester ammo just so i could have some reloadable brass, does that make me a gun nut?
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 8:39 AMI'd like to have a M-14. The military dont issue them anymore cause they think it's more gun than soldier's need so instead they issue not enough gun. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 10:33 PMwell, those soldiers gotta work for their paychecks! can't make their jobs too easy now, can we?
Anyways, I'm sure it saves money on our 'defense budget' lol... oops I shouldn't carry threads over between tribes. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 11:04 PMI guess if a scout rifle is defined as light weight then an m-14 may not be it. But it's a gun that will shoot every time and reach way out there accurately. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 11:23 PMYeah scout rifle has to be, if I remember right,
Bolt action
fed by stripper clips (I can't remember if removable magazine was also there, but it has to also be able to be fed with individual rounds easily)
forward-mounted, low power (1.5x to 2.5x) scope
.308 caliber or similar power
some sorta overall weight restrictin, like six and a half pounds, maybe?
And I dunno about overall length, but it would make sense if there was some parameter there, too.
And there are other things I see on em all the time, like extra ammo held on the exterior, and three-point slings, but I don't know if those are technically criteria for Cooper's scout concept. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 11:29 PMI think it's marlin that has the new lever action .308. A friend of mine bought one. It's a sweet looking gun. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 11:38 PMThat would be cool. I think leverguns are pretty good intermediate guns, sorta a similar role to a scout concept.
The real shortcoming of the levers is firing prone. You can't really do it and cycle the action very well. But those XTP Leverevolution bullets have really negated the 'blunt tip' problem and put the range out into a respectable intermediate range. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 11:42 PMyeah, it is marlin, same design as the 30 30 I guess, shoot's a .308 though. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 11:55 PMI'm guessing you can't just load it with .308 ball, with that jacketed pointy-tip loaded tip-to-primer down the whole magazine tube, you could end up with some real problems.
hehe... so basically a 30-30 rimless, more than a .308 lol -
-
This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Scout Rifles
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 8:17 AMA 308 lever gun?
If I remember correctly, when you shoot a lever gun prone, you roll the gun over on its left side to eject the brass. Can't say I ever tried it though. Ground's sharp and hot in AZ. -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 9:42 AMworks great in ny state lots of moss my 30-30 winchester scout rifle company name has taken more deer thaqn all my other rifles combined i use i high mount scope though so i can still use my iron sights
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 11:38 AMI dont have a link or anything but I'm sure Marlin has a web site to check one out. -
-
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 9:36 PMMy latest lever gun is a short little 1895 in 45-70, factory comped barrel. I slide her into a leather holster that fits on my backpack. I can reach back and draw it out with the pack still on. Only holds about 5 rounds, but that's 5 buffalo, or 5 mountain lions, or 5 rhinos, or 5 dump trucks....
I always have people asking me if the day of the revolver has ended, or if lever action guns are dead. I always say no and no. They have their place, mostly in rugged outdoors settings where their manual actions work well in the gritty wilderness. A Colt SA will always fire, a lever action 1985 will always rack another 45-90 into the chamber, no matter how dirty. I never take an auto camping. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, July 4, 2008 - 10:48 PMYeah I like that 45-70 of yourn.
I went with the GP100 as my first gun because I do so much camping. Same reasons. The kind of camping I do can get riverbed wet and muddy and gritty with sand, it can get desert-trail dusty and literally caked with dirt, it can get snow-peak icy packed with snow into all the cracks and turned to ice.
I can think of a lot of autos that have a chance of mechanical failure in those conditions. I can't think of any revolvers (over fifty bucks value) that would jam in those conditions. -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 1:46 PMThat's why I carry my Ruger Blackhawk. Absolute reliability. It will fire every time I pull the trigger, and be damned accurate about it. The Blackhawk will handle +P+ loadings. I carry some pretty stout loads, stout enough to take an AZ black bear if I had to.
Question is, how much ammo do y'all usually carry when you camp (and are not on a hunting trip?) I usually carry 5 in the gun, and another 5 in my pack (I carry on an empty cyclinder.) -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 1:56 PMMy gunbelt has loops, like a cowboy belt. my shirts are long, it covers the loops and any cartridges that might be in them, the only thing that shows is the fully-enclosed hunter-style 'flap-top' holster with my gun on the side. -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 7:36 PMProbably better that it is only minimally visible. These days you show up with a gun belt fulla bullets and people start freakin. It's why I prefer to carry concealed (unless I am on the way to the range.) Open carry just garners too much attention, especially when I carry my 1911 (the fancy one in the photo album.) -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 12:02 AMYeah, I would carry my bullets somewhere else if the john wayne belt was totally exposed.... I guess unless I was at a john wayne bullet belt convention. It's easy to wear, and kinda fun. And even though it's heavier, the distributed weight all-around actually makes the chunky steel of the GP100 less noticeable to wear.
When backpacking, my handgun stays behind my back in the empty space created by the pack frame. I use an 'internal frame' (which is basically two external, contoured rails as opposed to the full-tube-frame of the 'external frame' packs) so the gun space is still very concealed and private when I'm hiking, while still accessible to me in a hurry and doesn't dig into my back. Good deal. -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 2:20 PMWhen I camp I open carry. A Ruger Blackhawk is kinda big for hiding. Plus, I'm in the wilderness, fuck 'em if they don;t like it. I either carry in a strong side holster, or use an old Guvt surplus tankers holster and wear it in front. I have also found that a cross draw holster works well with a full frame pack. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 2:33 PMBeing lefthanded makes all my holster shopping a pain in the ass. There's no such thing as finding a cheap surplus holster that works for me.
Except this one time... I found one for eight or ten bucks unissued brand new condition because it was lefty and nobody had bought it for ever. My full-shrouded ruger was too fat to put in it, though. I ended up cutting the stitches, and then adding in a couple thicknesses of belt-leather in the seam and re-stitching it. fits fine now. But still, it kind of detracts from the 'great deal' aspect when you have to totally rework the thing before it's useful to you at all.
Around camp I'll open carry. On the trail, I'd rather not risk some anti-gun hippy telling a ranger that I 'brandished a gun' at them, when in reality the only thing that happened is they saw my holstered weapon and became uncomfortable, decided to deprive me of that freedom. I mean, seriously. You've got one or two hippies saying I threatened them with a gun, and you've got me, with a gun, saying that I didn't do anything at all. What is a ranger gonna do? and is it worth the hassle? -
-
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 4:13 PMhehe...
I'm sure there are anti-gun non-hippies to worry about. It just sounded fitting to throw 'hippy' in there.
Ya damn hippy! -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 11:11 AMYou should scout the bargain bins for left handed holsters. That's where I have found a few, including one I gave a left handed friend. He carries his model 19 in it. Paid $5 for it, pretty much brand new. There are some great bargains in the bin. I always go through it whenever I am at a gun store.
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, July 13, 2008 - 4:37 PMwhen i worked at moega inst years ago they called me the new york hippie red neck -
-
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 3:16 PMI looked up that Marlin express, it is a whole new bullet, not the nato 308. Nice gun, but I've never been crazy with buying wildcat cartridges. Good way to get stuck with a Beta VCR when it flops. I prefer mainstream ammo. Better from an EOW perspective too. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 12:15 AMI didnt know it was a different kind of .308. That suck's. -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 10:20 AMThey are trying to compare it ballistically to the Nato 7.62/308. It sounds interesting, but I don;t like scoping leverguns, and I never buy new cartridges until they are mainstreamed. You just wind up hunting too hard for ammo and paying too much for it when you do find some. Besides, a gun that uses obscure ammo is not very EOW friendly. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 10:51 AMI guess for an eow gun a 30-30 is good to have since everyone in the country has one. Seem's like it anyway. sure would make it easier to scavenge ammo. I dont like a scope on a lever gun either. I think they were basicly designed to ride in a saddle boot and a scope just ruins that. -
-
Unsu...
Re: Scout Rifles
Sun, July 20, 2008 - 12:08 PMThe problem with scavenging ammo is that most hunters (at least the ones I know of) will have a few odd rounds in a box during the year, and just buy one new box of ammo during hunting season. Use a few to make sure the gun is sighted in, and save five or six for the season.
I dunno many guys that keep more than fifty rounds on hand at any given time for any given caliber, unless they plan on going shooting in which case they buy up a bunch and go blow it all in the same afternoon.
But I agree, 30-30 is a good way to go, no problem finding spare parts, as there really are just a couple of guns made in that caliber, and everybody owns at least one.
30-06 is the way things go out here, everybody's got a 30-06 for hunting. So as a caliber it would be a good EOW choice, but there are so many different gun models in that caliber, your chances are much slimmer of finding spare parts for your own gun. -
-
Re: Scout Rifles
Wed, July 23, 2008 - 5:38 PM3030 is a great cartridge for availability. 30-08, 762x54 & 39, 308, 9mm. All the majors. Wildcats always seemed too risky to me, I don't want to have trouble locating ammo for a gun. There are just too many great old cartridges out there that will do the same things as the wildcat load, but I will always be able to find bullets for the 243 (I even have a backlog of bullets waiting to be loaded in this caliber.)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
